Nowadays, it seems like masculinity is under attack. The concept of “toxic masculinity” has created this situation where aiming to be a confident, physically strong, ambitious, ‘red blooded,’ masculine male is seen as a slippery slope towards toxic masculinity. Maybe this is why so many young men feel lost nowadays - they are discouraged from following their instincts. That said, it’s hard to point at anything concrete that evidences this. Whether this is accurate also depends on what you define as “masculine.” But what do you guys think? Is there anything to this?
As a 25 y/o male who has spent the last 8 years in far left circles, I can say that, at least in that crowd, there is a strong degree of indiscriminate man-hate.
I recall one night at dinner trying to tell my friends about a book I was reading and when I mentioned the name of the author (Matt Parker), one of the females (who identifies as NB) immediately blurted out "Ew! A man!". This was not the only such instance of "all men are garbage" rhetoric, and there was much verbal discouragement from attitudes of assertiveness and masculinity in general.
This all lead me to feel like I couldn't be a good person and a man, and so I believed I was trans. I believed I HAD to be trans. The endocrinologist had my estrogen in her hand before I realized what a huge mistake that would be. Real buzzer beater. Ive since put away the dresses, grown my beard back out, started going to the gym, and started speaking my mind again even if I know people might not love what I have to say, and I've been feeling infinitely better for it.
The interesting thing is that all of these anti-men females (I say female bc they don't identify as women) have men as partners. But it seems like they also suffer from this belief that all masculinity is toxic masculinity and so have a deep internal conflict and moral dilemma there. And it seems to me like the fact that they are attracted to what they believe they should hate only makes them resent it even more, diving the wedge deeper.
Having seen my detransition and having had some conversations about it, I think that my friends (they are still my friends) have come around a bit on the issue, and I think more generally that feels to be the case. Perhaps it is just that people grow out of it and the younger crowd still thinks that but I just don't interact with it as much, but I feel like there is a general shift where people are realizing we went way too far in demonizing masculinity. That's hopeful; it shows that we can learn. I think it was necessary to raise the temperature on masculinity to cook off the really awful things that people did under the guise of masculinity, but now its time to cool things off and find a new balance.
I really think that deep down, we all really just want men to be men but not be predatory dicks. Those things aren't synonymous but somehow they have become conflated.
Holy shit your experience sounds awful. I'm glad you found your voice. You're a total champ for trying to find balance and compassion even though you've been treated like shit.
Thanks. It's tough because I understand where they are coming from, and I know that they really did want the best for me and that's why they tried to discourage behavior that they saw as toxic. Past experiences with abusive fathers or ex-boyfriends and a media that constantly highlights the worst in men leaves scars on their models of what masculinity is and made it hard to differentiate the good from the bad.
I think in general everyone is just trying to live up their values while also trying to discover what those values are. And sometimes people get hurt as a result. I still think that's better than the alternative where we don't encourage the people we care about to live up to our values just because we might change those values one day.
I've certainly done the same, obsessively and aggressively pushing arbitrary behaviors that I saw as "eco-friendly" and making others (and myself) feel guilty about throwing out one plastic takeout container or not turning the lights off when you leave the room for 3 minutes, things I now generally view as completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
I'm certainly no saint, I can be incredibly judgmental and spiteful and vengeful, but in the rare moment of clarity where I can take a step back and look at things without getting to invested in them, I try to remember that we're all just people trying to make it in this world and figure out what we need. We're all just people trying to make the world the best that it can be in the ways that make the most sense to us at this particular time. And sometimes we do awful things, vengeful things, spiteful things. But in a way we do it because at some level we believe that it is what's best, that somehow inflicting suffering brings justice for suffering past. It's a demented and perverse way of thinking, but we all do it nonetheless. So I try, when I can, to remember that, and to reflect on my own capacity for such behavior, and to not hold it against people. Especially when I know that those people really do want the best for me.
That all being said, sometimes people will get stuck in their ways. You change, or they change, and you are no longer compatible in the same way as you once were. When you recognize that, it's time to move on. Don't hold on to resentment for wrongs done unto you, forgive, and move on.
"I still think that's better than the alternative where we don't encourage the people we care about to live up to our values just because we might change those values one day."
Well said. Have you held back from doing what you think is best because you thought you didn't know enough? I certainly have. It is terrifying to have a strong opinion about complex topics like feminism or masculinity, when I could turn out to be wrong and not be treated with compassion even when I admit fault.
I've resorted to avoiding giving advice unless absolutely necessary, and rather talk about my own feelings and experiences. Even if they aren't objectively accurate or remotely close to giving a complete picture, they're valuable and valid.
On top of being balanced and compassionate, you're a good communicator, Andy. ✨ Your friends surely are glad to have you
I don't frequent the internet often, or watch the news anymore. Without social media or the news exposing me to certain narratives, I'm left to think for myself. It's then up to my immediate environment to reinforce a feminized notion. And that's simply not the case for my situation. None of my friends or coworkers imply that being "confident, physically strong, ambitious, [or] ‘red blooded,’" are bad things. I suppose it depends on which circles you visit online or in-person.
This entire gender war has been created by the media and they are the only ones profiting from it.
Did you or anyone you know physically saw any concern over toxic masculinity in real life ? It may have been used by brainwashed woman when they didnt have anything else to say, but you will mostly see this on your teleprompter.
Yes, I do know someone who complains about "toxic masculinity" often and I feel he is a representative of the real source of all this.
He is a university psychology professor and generally unpleasant and messed up person. He takes great pride telling stories about how he manipulates his students for fun and personal advantage.
It makes sense that he would have issues after all many dermatologists had bad skin.
Clark, I believe that you keyed in on something that is at the root of this entire issue. "He is a university psychology professor and generally unpleasant and messed up person." Your statement, and in particular the word "unpleasant" gave me pause. I would like to theorize and carry that a step further. Allow me to submit for review that the perpetuators of this ridiculous notion are ALL unpleasant, and furthermore, I suggest completely unhappy with themselves, achievements (or lack thereof), their appearance, body type, intellectual abilities (again, or lack thereof), coping skills, the ability to deal with "adulthood and society as a whole, etc... etc...etc... Thoughts? Discuss...
Envy is powerful. Easier to tear something down than to build something. The politics of personal destruction works, so it is used every day against anyone who resists the Woke Mind Virus.
Well the feminist movement was started and funded by gorge soros in the 1950s, at the time women didn't believe they needed rights because it would be to much of a hassle(sounds crazy i know). But by giving women rights that opens up a new revenue path for taxing women as people and the beginning of the destruction of the idea of a nuclear family. The days of families would soon crumble under the false guise of freedom and feminism, which is what we see today. Strong critical thinking men revolt against corruption and with tyranny looming over the horizon its only fitting that masculinity has become a target, they can not have those type of people in society if you want slaves. They are basing their playbook on the dark ages. Attempting to repeat a new modern dark age.
I personally don't think anyone planned this. The media catered to a demo of woman with increasing free time, feeding their egos and their rage. There is no going back
Heres an article that talks about some of his investments into the feminist movement. If 246 mil ain't funding idk what is. There is some merit to your opinion but that comes with their programming.
I would say it seems to be more prevalent in the anglophone world, while Scandinavia seem to be less extreme, it seems more prevalent in Sweden then Norway and then Denmark.
For eastern Europe it seems to be much less, in turn than Scandinavia.
"Inevitably, masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies invariably give way to tyranny."
-Aristotle
Broadly speaking, America today is a culture that has redefined a bunch of important concepts, concepts which form the bedrock of civilization; in each case the masculine component of an idea is removed and the feminine component is emphasized. Consider the examples below.
Love, for instance, has been redefined in a totally feminine manner - namely, love is now seen as mere acceptance, the affirmation and endorsement of whatever someone says makes them happy in that moment, even if it's clearly bad for them in the long run. There is little to no room for tough love or discipline today. Morality has also been redefined in a feminine manner - namely, that whatever does not directly and overtly hurt someone else is morally acceptable. This is nearly everyone's definition of morality in America today. Likewise, justice has been entirely redefined; instead of aiming for equality of opportunity, we aim for equality of outcome. Moreover, have you noticed how "servant leadership" is seen as the answer to everything? I often hear people say that we should "lead by serving", which is true, but where are the people who will "serve by leading"?
If interested in wrestling with these ideas further, I'd highly recommend checking out C.S. Lewis' short essay entitled "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment" - one of his best works!
That's a fake Aristotle quote. Originally, it was a fake quote that simply referred to republics giving way to democracies, then to tyrannies, then some anonymous genius faked it up even more by adding the masculine-feminine thing. When you source quotes online, credible ones name the source title as well as the author. Also, I suspected it wasn't Aristotle because I have read Aristotle and it doesn't sound like him. So when you cite fake quotes, well-read people can tell you're not well-read. Sorry that sounds harsher than I meant, but just letting you know how it comes across.
I’m a woman and progressive, and while I think some of the traits that get labeled as toxic masculinity -- the actual toxic ones, like being violent or coercive or condescending, yelling sexual stuff at women, etc -- are probably clearly terrible to most people, I do think many of the conversations that spiral off that idea make men feel needlessly self-conscious.
I see a lot of Reddit posts from men saying they start to panic if they so much as catch themselves looking at a woman, lots of anguish about what’s okay to say because they’ve been urged to nitpick themselves beyond all reason, and especially a sense of doom about how bad it is if any individual woman reacts to them with discomfort. I try to tell them not to take the voices of poorly adjusted women online too seriously. I tell them there’s always going to be people who get uncomfortable with odd things and all it means is back off, and don’t project them on every woman they meet or life will feel impossible and miserable.
Crazy and unfair ideas get an alarming amount of likes online and it’s important to put things in perspective. I think it’s a difficult time for any conscientious person because the internet will make you feel like if you can’t read the mind of every person with a psychological disorder, then you’re a bad person. We’re also encouraged to treat groups as monoliths when they’re very much not. The men who feel the worst about these ideas aren’t the truly toxic ones who need to re-evaluate much. Instead it’s usually guys who realized after the fact they did some commonly uncomfortable oblivious things, and they’re good people who really don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable so it gnaws at them more than it should. Then crazy people are all too willing to mindfuck them as they navigate how to proceed.
If anyone reading this needs to hear this, understand that emotionally damaged people feel they cannot forgive anyone, but that does not mean you are objectively beyond forgiveness. Emotionally damaged people get upset at more things than other people, and they blame the people around them. Emotionally damaged people do not have a good gauge of the validity of their judgments of others. Tons of them post online.
Of course - along with toxic food and malnutrition basically leading to the physical degeneration of men causing small jaws and airway problems (as well as women but more so men), there is also a spiritual degeneration.
There is so much confusion among women nowdays because they are not surrounded by what they would perceive as real masculine healthy mates anymore. The few that are around will have an endless amount of one-night stands before they decide to settle down with happy and pretty conservative wives - which in turn even makes it harder for the "leftover" women. They don't respect the other less attractive men around them anymore and turn to feminism. Which makes the men suffer even more of course - they will reject their manhood and turn to transgenderism and homosexuality and everything that is traditionally masculine will be perceived as evil.
If we continue like this then in a few generations of modern food, veganism and bowing down to the state we will have a society where everyone lives in a permanent state of depression being malnourished, sexually deprived and crippled.
I agree with toxic food and malnutrition, but veganism is not the cause, it's the solution. You should listen to the Rick Roll podcast 11-24-22 "A Masterclass On Plant-Based Nutrition" Rich is a very masculine endurance athlete who changed to a plant-based diet years ago for his health. The American diet is completely messed up - this podcast is very enlightening.
A Vegan diet probably helps many at first because mixxing cooked meat with veggies and carbs makes the stomach ph very alkaline causing problems with digestion. However all vegans will sooner or later develop problems because it lacks what we evolved to eat for millions of years (meat).
Framed from the perspective of domestication (as in wolves to dogs), it's more obvious what "toxic" means in the context of polite society and why men would be discouraged from being too masculine. It's hard to argue that overt aggression is desirable in the context of, say, Starbucks. However...
We subdue the rougher instincts in wolves to make dogs by encouraging genetic infantilization (neotony) so that we don't have to fight them for our ribeye and they can be useful to us as pets or working animals. Likewise, we subdue human male instincts, and for myriad reasons. Desire for comfort and safety, expediency of capitalism, something in the water?
That being said... how far are we going to take it and is it a good idea? We domesticate dogs for our purposes, but their destiny and utility is decided by us as overlords. One consequence is that they become helpless outside the context of symbiosis with humans. When we domesticate ourselves, subduing our rougher instincts, what do we lose in the process? Who is overseeing this transformation and what consequences might follow? Are we unwittingly molding ourselves to be helpless outside the context of Starbucks?
Toxic masculinity is when the aggressive traits that are typically seen as masculine are over-expressed. Violence, misogyny, homophobia are not unique to men. Women can be aggressive too. The problem is that we assume that these behaviors are normal.
Jordan Peterson, quite rightly, says that he has no problem with trans people. He only has a problem with the language requirements.
But then he takes a shot at Ellen/Elliot Page and calls it criminal. I didn't get it until he pointed out that a celebrity is making voluntary sterilization seem cool. That their personal image is somehow flawed.
Inside every person is a mental model of a man and a woman. We build these models based on our parents, then on how we see various role models in our lives. Some people believe that they have to behave like the models they've made. And some of them believe that they aught NOT behave like the models of the opposite sex.
Then there are those that don't accept that they must behave like any one model. That's how you get gender-fluid people. Sometimes they feel girly, other times they feel boyish.
You get gender dysphoria when you decide that you don't like the model of your own sex and decide that you should become the opposite sex - because you identify more with that model.
Toxic masculinity is therefore not only a gross imbalance in your own model - identifying with being hyper-male, but also a repulsion of the opposite model. Women are seen as sub-human and incapable of handling their emotions or making rational decisions, while also being objectified as useful only for reproduction.
I suspect that it's a side effect of the grooming from nazi groups. They find vulnerable boys and show them violent porn. Then they tell them that "their women" are being stolen by black/Hispanic/non-white cultures, which leads to their radicalization.
I think there is masculinity, and there is toxic masculinity, and people bundle them all up together and say that being one means being the other. This of course is not correct. It's like saying if you're a muslim then you're a terrorist. It shows a lack of education, insight and exposure to the topic. Woke culture is mostly about quickly judging others without taking a moment to understand all sides of the discussion.
I think there is woke, and there is toxic wokeness, and people bundle them all up together and say that being one means being the other. This of course is not correct. It's like saying if you're a muslim then you're a terrorist. It shows a lack of education, insight and exposure to the topic. Masculine culture is mostly about quickly judging others without taking a moment to understand all sides of the discussion.
Good point. I was referring to the toxic woke culture, without considering that there are reasonable woke-minded people. I guess, like masculinity, the word 'woke' has come to be understood as a toxic kind automatically.
In my life, it looks like this kind of gender based opinion is a result of loud voices of minorities (by this, I mean small groups who are easily triggered), which get echoed by parrots and imps. In real life, I haven't had any contact with this idea, save for a young guy I met by chance at a bar who wanted to make small talk. Be who you want and live with your decision.
The loudest voices tend to push a narrative that affect wide swathes of people, being able to tune that out now a days is truly a gift.
Being involved in your local community, family, friend circles - that's where you focus your attention rather than the minority of the loudest and usually most extreme, in either direction, voices.
I think in the online social world it is discouraged heavily, however in actual face to face life most people do not feel this way. There are definately some that do and speak loudly over everyone else, but for the silent majority people sont feel the need to discuss this.
It seems heavily discussed in younger age groups but in my personal opinion that is where you are getting this 4th wave feminism and progressivism spreading like wildfire. As people grow up they tend to calm down on these views and understand why the traditional idea of masculinity was necessary and healthy.
Women's issues tended to be that they were being suppressed / aggressed upon, which is the type of issue that's generally pretty visible, and fixing it is more about "people should stop doing X".
Men's issues are more about a _lack_ of something, a lack of support, a lack of warmth, a lack of affirmation, a lack of direction, a lack of hope. This is a lot harder to notice from the outside, harder to take seriously, and categorically harder to fix since it requires action rather than inaction.
Women had less freedom but more support, while men had freedom but no explicit support. In the past that lack of freedom of women meant that men were inherently needed and valued. We've made great strides in more freedoms for women, so now it's men that need new sources of explicit support and warmth.
Imo the "Masculinity" that needs to be supported is around your ability to do what needs to be done. This both means the strength and resilience to do it despite adversity, but also the intelligence to know what it is you're supposed to do, what matters and what doesn't. It definitely doesn't mean the suppression of others, since power isn't the goal in itself. Viewing it this way, "feminine" traits of warmth don't necessarily detract from one's masculinity either, warmth can be crucial to achieving an important outcome.
Most universities advocate for feminism nowadays. Feminists have successfully policed and sanitized our language because according to them particular words promoted the "wrong" ideas.
Yet they use the word "feminism" to mean everything that is good and "patriarchy" to mean everything that is bad.
If the above example isn't proof of discouragement of men for you then I do not know if anything could change a your mind about the issue.
I think firstly we need to identify what "Toxic Masculinity" means in actual terms and how different it is from "Masculinity".
This whole idea of Males with Masculine features and Female with Feminine features was created during the hunters and gatherers period where it made more sense.
Men were required to hunt, gather for food for the family.
Women were required to stay and take care of the kids.
But saying that all men should only have "Masculine" traits vis-à-vis women should only have "Feminine" traits is absurdly wrong in these times.
We as human beings carry a mixture of both traits - Masculine being confident, competent, strong among others and Feminine being kind, caring, empathy among others.
Now toxicity comes into the picture, when (In this case of Toxic Masculinity) men are supposed to not express, "man up" about their feelings or show masculine characteristics by peer pressure.
We need to understand that the only divide we've is in terms of biological features and other traits are heavily influenced by society or upbringing. We always carry a mixture of both traits and one usually is overshadowed by the other.
I think the concept of what a masculine man is is a bit of a myth. What exactly am I meant to be doing so that I'm considered "masculine"? It seems to me as though in order to be considered a man by those advocating "traditional masculinity" I have to be a dick who demeans anyone I can put down that disagrees with me. Although I don't like the behaviour of people who act like all men are a problem to society, I have no inclination to believe in those people who say I can't have self respect unless I act like a caricature from the 50s. I happen to have the greatest respect for strong, kind people in general, regardless of gender.
I think, like most highly politicized issues, it comes down to your social circles. I'm attempting to lower my doom scrolling and instead be highly on specific topics, at the moment its building a nutrition routine with fasting hence why I'm even here. For me its definitely hard not to get sucked into scrolling on whatever platform.
The point being I think you perceive these attacks by being hyper-aware of news/media/scrolling. I fail to see an attack on my masculinity when not on these platforms, I mean I don't even know how that'd happen in an face-to-face interaction but scrolling through other comments its as if there's a concerted effort to destroy the idea of being a man. Saying life is complicated, and especially with our current society being the most complex one to ever exist, doesn't give anyone immediate gratification though.
man become man, god make woman, man like woman, man become woman, man who now woman realize man hot, so man date man. man cannot make man so man become man again and man go back to woman to make man. man is god ooga booga.
I'm growing concerned that you've been getting deeper and deeper down a bit of a rabbit hole lately that will not serve you well.
I'm a longtime fan of your channel, always eagerly awaiting new uploads. I really appreciate your extremely thorough and unbiased approach.
Lately though, Jordan Peterson, Liver King, and now what sounds like more 'red pill' content about masculinity on the way...
I'm a fan of the Peterson lectures I've seen from years ago. Doesn't it feel like he's absolutely off his rocker lately though? So full of hatred, malice and vitriol.
I'm all for some more insights from you on being healthy (physically and mentally).
Just be careful what you feed your own mind while you continue your own journey. Lately it feels like a black hole (or algorithm) of women-hating, backwards thinking content creators are dragging you in, bit by bit.
I only say all of this because it reminds me of watching a friend who has watched too many tiktoks or conspiracy youtube videos, for example, who has started to become radicalized in some way.
Tread carefully, an algorithm can be much like a riptide.
You might think that toxic masculinity is frowned upon, but I see in real life very masculine appearing males being successful with women and in career. This may be due to their attractive physical appearance so I'm not sure if a short or facially challenged man can reap these benefits. But everyone loves or defers to a six foot tall, tanned, muscular man with a good smile who seems "nice" but also is firm and unapologetic.
I don't think there is a discouragement about being masculine, but there certainly is a stigma around it. There is a certain correlation between focusing a lot on your "manliness" and being disinterested (or at worst - ignorant) of the issues that a big part of those people are creating.
I believe it's a great thing to focus on your health and physique and being more masculine in terms of physiology is certainly a good thing, if that is what you are striving for.
I believe it's mostly a problem that got brought up by feminine circles, but not necessarily in bad faith. As there are such men that show traits of "hyper-masculinity" (big, muscular, louder etc.) that are also really ignorant or even malicious towards women.
My point is that the solutions to this dilemma should be targeted at those particular cases and not at masculinity as a whole (which sadly it kinda is nowadays).
I don't feel pressure to reign in masculine impulses. Of course, I don't think I have many—it's amazingly easy for me to _not_ run around raping and pillaging. But there are other aspects, at least in the US, that are off-putting.
For example, I'm in a mixed-race marriage. And I'm worried that one day when we have kids, some lunatic busybody will see me out with my ethnically-different child and call the cops under suspicion I'm a child predator. It feels like, in this zeitgeist, men in society are just suspected of being up to no good by default.
I think the problem lies in the labeling. The traits that are described in toxic masculinity are bad for the collective and each individual personally as well but it is framed as if it is a problem of the male nature.
For example bullying or sexuell assault is labeled as toxic masc. (2 objective bad things) but the only thing it does is generating these useless discussion we have now and you can see that in the comment section.
also anyone who is offended by this wording is a bit of a snowflake, normally attributed to the very left of the political spectrum. Quite ironic actually
In Asia, I don't think men are discouraged from being the traditional paradigm of masculinity. I do think there is a problem where men are constantly being fed the idea that the traditional paradigm is the only paradigm.
Well I main issue I see in "toxic masculine" men is lack of indulgence.. for all kinds of things. Been there myself but I've really put the effort into becoming indulgent and I've managed to receive a lot of positive feedback in terms of being "more masculine" or "you're the example of healthy masculinity" and women tend to feel safer around me every since.
To add to this, it's easy to misinterpret indulgence in masculine self-improvement as a status seeking and ego building behavior, when in reality the person could be doing it just for themselves.
As a 25 y/o male who has spent the last 8 years in far left circles, I can say that, at least in that crowd, there is a strong degree of indiscriminate man-hate.
I recall one night at dinner trying to tell my friends about a book I was reading and when I mentioned the name of the author (Matt Parker), one of the females (who identifies as NB) immediately blurted out "Ew! A man!". This was not the only such instance of "all men are garbage" rhetoric, and there was much verbal discouragement from attitudes of assertiveness and masculinity in general.
This all lead me to feel like I couldn't be a good person and a man, and so I believed I was trans. I believed I HAD to be trans. The endocrinologist had my estrogen in her hand before I realized what a huge mistake that would be. Real buzzer beater. Ive since put away the dresses, grown my beard back out, started going to the gym, and started speaking my mind again even if I know people might not love what I have to say, and I've been feeling infinitely better for it.
The interesting thing is that all of these anti-men females (I say female bc they don't identify as women) have men as partners. But it seems like they also suffer from this belief that all masculinity is toxic masculinity and so have a deep internal conflict and moral dilemma there. And it seems to me like the fact that they are attracted to what they believe they should hate only makes them resent it even more, diving the wedge deeper.
Having seen my detransition and having had some conversations about it, I think that my friends (they are still my friends) have come around a bit on the issue, and I think more generally that feels to be the case. Perhaps it is just that people grow out of it and the younger crowd still thinks that but I just don't interact with it as much, but I feel like there is a general shift where people are realizing we went way too far in demonizing masculinity. That's hopeful; it shows that we can learn. I think it was necessary to raise the temperature on masculinity to cook off the really awful things that people did under the guise of masculinity, but now its time to cool things off and find a new balance.
I really think that deep down, we all really just want men to be men but not be predatory dicks. Those things aren't synonymous but somehow they have become conflated.
Holy shit your experience sounds awful. I'm glad you found your voice. You're a total champ for trying to find balance and compassion even though you've been treated like shit.
Thanks. It's tough because I understand where they are coming from, and I know that they really did want the best for me and that's why they tried to discourage behavior that they saw as toxic. Past experiences with abusive fathers or ex-boyfriends and a media that constantly highlights the worst in men leaves scars on their models of what masculinity is and made it hard to differentiate the good from the bad.
I think in general everyone is just trying to live up their values while also trying to discover what those values are. And sometimes people get hurt as a result. I still think that's better than the alternative where we don't encourage the people we care about to live up to our values just because we might change those values one day.
I've certainly done the same, obsessively and aggressively pushing arbitrary behaviors that I saw as "eco-friendly" and making others (and myself) feel guilty about throwing out one plastic takeout container or not turning the lights off when you leave the room for 3 minutes, things I now generally view as completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
I'm certainly no saint, I can be incredibly judgmental and spiteful and vengeful, but in the rare moment of clarity where I can take a step back and look at things without getting to invested in them, I try to remember that we're all just people trying to make it in this world and figure out what we need. We're all just people trying to make the world the best that it can be in the ways that make the most sense to us at this particular time. And sometimes we do awful things, vengeful things, spiteful things. But in a way we do it because at some level we believe that it is what's best, that somehow inflicting suffering brings justice for suffering past. It's a demented and perverse way of thinking, but we all do it nonetheless. So I try, when I can, to remember that, and to reflect on my own capacity for such behavior, and to not hold it against people. Especially when I know that those people really do want the best for me.
That all being said, sometimes people will get stuck in their ways. You change, or they change, and you are no longer compatible in the same way as you once were. When you recognize that, it's time to move on. Don't hold on to resentment for wrongs done unto you, forgive, and move on.
"I still think that's better than the alternative where we don't encourage the people we care about to live up to our values just because we might change those values one day."
Well said. Have you held back from doing what you think is best because you thought you didn't know enough? I certainly have. It is terrifying to have a strong opinion about complex topics like feminism or masculinity, when I could turn out to be wrong and not be treated with compassion even when I admit fault.
I've resorted to avoiding giving advice unless absolutely necessary, and rather talk about my own feelings and experiences. Even if they aren't objectively accurate or remotely close to giving a complete picture, they're valuable and valid.
On top of being balanced and compassionate, you're a good communicator, Andy. ✨ Your friends surely are glad to have you
I don't frequent the internet often, or watch the news anymore. Without social media or the news exposing me to certain narratives, I'm left to think for myself. It's then up to my immediate environment to reinforce a feminized notion. And that's simply not the case for my situation. None of my friends or coworkers imply that being "confident, physically strong, ambitious, [or] ‘red blooded,’" are bad things. I suppose it depends on which circles you visit online or in-person.
This entire gender war has been created by the media and they are the only ones profiting from it.
Did you or anyone you know physically saw any concern over toxic masculinity in real life ? It may have been used by brainwashed woman when they didnt have anything else to say, but you will mostly see this on your teleprompter.
If you look into the abyss ...
Yes, I do know someone who complains about "toxic masculinity" often and I feel he is a representative of the real source of all this.
He is a university psychology professor and generally unpleasant and messed up person. He takes great pride telling stories about how he manipulates his students for fun and personal advantage.
It makes sense that he would have issues after all many dermatologists had bad skin.
Clark, I believe that you keyed in on something that is at the root of this entire issue. "He is a university psychology professor and generally unpleasant and messed up person." Your statement, and in particular the word "unpleasant" gave me pause. I would like to theorize and carry that a step further. Allow me to submit for review that the perpetuators of this ridiculous notion are ALL unpleasant, and furthermore, I suggest completely unhappy with themselves, achievements (or lack thereof), their appearance, body type, intellectual abilities (again, or lack thereof), coping skills, the ability to deal with "adulthood and society as a whole, etc... etc...etc... Thoughts? Discuss...
some people just want tonwatch the world burn.
Envy is powerful. Easier to tear something down than to build something. The politics of personal destruction works, so it is used every day against anyone who resists the Woke Mind Virus.
Well the feminist movement was started and funded by gorge soros in the 1950s, at the time women didn't believe they needed rights because it would be to much of a hassle(sounds crazy i know). But by giving women rights that opens up a new revenue path for taxing women as people and the beginning of the destruction of the idea of a nuclear family. The days of families would soon crumble under the false guise of freedom and feminism, which is what we see today. Strong critical thinking men revolt against corruption and with tyranny looming over the horizon its only fitting that masculinity has become a target, they can not have those type of people in society if you want slaves. They are basing their playbook on the dark ages. Attempting to repeat a new modern dark age.
I personally don't think anyone planned this. The media catered to a demo of woman with increasing free time, feeding their egos and their rage. There is no going back
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4294960/George-Soros-gives-246-million-feminist-groups.html
Heres an article that talks about some of his investments into the feminist movement. If 246 mil ain't funding idk what is. There is some merit to your opinion but that comes with their programming.
Media certainly help but they didn't create it. Look up the Frankfurt School for the implementation, but the roots are pure Marxist
I would say it seems to be more prevalent in the anglophone world, while Scandinavia seem to be less extreme, it seems more prevalent in Sweden then Norway and then Denmark.
For eastern Europe it seems to be much less, in turn than Scandinavia.
Exactly. Eastern Europe is lagging behind US in development but thankfully also in bullshit.
"Inevitably, masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies invariably give way to tyranny."
-Aristotle
Broadly speaking, America today is a culture that has redefined a bunch of important concepts, concepts which form the bedrock of civilization; in each case the masculine component of an idea is removed and the feminine component is emphasized. Consider the examples below.
Love, for instance, has been redefined in a totally feminine manner - namely, love is now seen as mere acceptance, the affirmation and endorsement of whatever someone says makes them happy in that moment, even if it's clearly bad for them in the long run. There is little to no room for tough love or discipline today. Morality has also been redefined in a feminine manner - namely, that whatever does not directly and overtly hurt someone else is morally acceptable. This is nearly everyone's definition of morality in America today. Likewise, justice has been entirely redefined; instead of aiming for equality of opportunity, we aim for equality of outcome. Moreover, have you noticed how "servant leadership" is seen as the answer to everything? I often hear people say that we should "lead by serving", which is true, but where are the people who will "serve by leading"?
If interested in wrestling with these ideas further, I'd highly recommend checking out C.S. Lewis' short essay entitled "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment" - one of his best works!
That's a fake Aristotle quote. Originally, it was a fake quote that simply referred to republics giving way to democracies, then to tyrannies, then some anonymous genius faked it up even more by adding the masculine-feminine thing. When you source quotes online, credible ones name the source title as well as the author. Also, I suspected it wasn't Aristotle because I have read Aristotle and it doesn't sound like him. So when you cite fake quotes, well-read people can tell you're not well-read. Sorry that sounds harsher than I meant, but just letting you know how it comes across.
I’m a woman and progressive, and while I think some of the traits that get labeled as toxic masculinity -- the actual toxic ones, like being violent or coercive or condescending, yelling sexual stuff at women, etc -- are probably clearly terrible to most people, I do think many of the conversations that spiral off that idea make men feel needlessly self-conscious.
I see a lot of Reddit posts from men saying they start to panic if they so much as catch themselves looking at a woman, lots of anguish about what’s okay to say because they’ve been urged to nitpick themselves beyond all reason, and especially a sense of doom about how bad it is if any individual woman reacts to them with discomfort. I try to tell them not to take the voices of poorly adjusted women online too seriously. I tell them there’s always going to be people who get uncomfortable with odd things and all it means is back off, and don’t project them on every woman they meet or life will feel impossible and miserable.
Crazy and unfair ideas get an alarming amount of likes online and it’s important to put things in perspective. I think it’s a difficult time for any conscientious person because the internet will make you feel like if you can’t read the mind of every person with a psychological disorder, then you’re a bad person. We’re also encouraged to treat groups as monoliths when they’re very much not. The men who feel the worst about these ideas aren’t the truly toxic ones who need to re-evaluate much. Instead it’s usually guys who realized after the fact they did some commonly uncomfortable oblivious things, and they’re good people who really don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable so it gnaws at them more than it should. Then crazy people are all too willing to mindfuck them as they navigate how to proceed.
If anyone reading this needs to hear this, understand that emotionally damaged people feel they cannot forgive anyone, but that does not mean you are objectively beyond forgiveness. Emotionally damaged people get upset at more things than other people, and they blame the people around them. Emotionally damaged people do not have a good gauge of the validity of their judgments of others. Tons of them post online.
Of course - along with toxic food and malnutrition basically leading to the physical degeneration of men causing small jaws and airway problems (as well as women but more so men), there is also a spiritual degeneration.
There is so much confusion among women nowdays because they are not surrounded by what they would perceive as real masculine healthy mates anymore. The few that are around will have an endless amount of one-night stands before they decide to settle down with happy and pretty conservative wives - which in turn even makes it harder for the "leftover" women. They don't respect the other less attractive men around them anymore and turn to feminism. Which makes the men suffer even more of course - they will reject their manhood and turn to transgenderism and homosexuality and everything that is traditionally masculine will be perceived as evil.
If we continue like this then in a few generations of modern food, veganism and bowing down to the state we will have a society where everyone lives in a permanent state of depression being malnourished, sexually deprived and crippled.
Would be interested in some explanation of the nutrition info i. Your first paragraph. Would you mind sharing some places where i can read more?
sure.
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration from Weston A. Price
JawHacks on Youtube (I think he has some videos explaining how our jaws grow together and how the environment plays into it)
What I've Learned himself of course
Aajonus Vonderplanitz
The Egg Benedicts Option from Raw Egg Nationalist
also read up on Pottengers Cats (might do this first)
I agree with toxic food and malnutrition, but veganism is not the cause, it's the solution. You should listen to the Rick Roll podcast 11-24-22 "A Masterclass On Plant-Based Nutrition" Rich is a very masculine endurance athlete who changed to a plant-based diet years ago for his health. The American diet is completely messed up - this podcast is very enlightening.
A Vegan diet probably helps many at first because mixxing cooked meat with veggies and carbs makes the stomach ph very alkaline causing problems with digestion. However all vegans will sooner or later develop problems because it lacks what we evolved to eat for millions of years (meat).
There is a very good reason why the vast majority of vegetarians quit that silliness in less than 5 years. It's not healthy.
I'd add Ray Peat and his articles
heard of the guy but never saw anything from him - gotta read up on that. thanks for the suggestion tho!
Framed from the perspective of domestication (as in wolves to dogs), it's more obvious what "toxic" means in the context of polite society and why men would be discouraged from being too masculine. It's hard to argue that overt aggression is desirable in the context of, say, Starbucks. However...
We subdue the rougher instincts in wolves to make dogs by encouraging genetic infantilization (neotony) so that we don't have to fight them for our ribeye and they can be useful to us as pets or working animals. Likewise, we subdue human male instincts, and for myriad reasons. Desire for comfort and safety, expediency of capitalism, something in the water?
That being said... how far are we going to take it and is it a good idea? We domesticate dogs for our purposes, but their destiny and utility is decided by us as overlords. One consequence is that they become helpless outside the context of symbiosis with humans. When we domesticate ourselves, subduing our rougher instincts, what do we lose in the process? Who is overseeing this transformation and what consequences might follow? Are we unwittingly molding ourselves to be helpless outside the context of Starbucks?
Toxic masculinity is when the aggressive traits that are typically seen as masculine are over-expressed. Violence, misogyny, homophobia are not unique to men. Women can be aggressive too. The problem is that we assume that these behaviors are normal.
Jordan Peterson, quite rightly, says that he has no problem with trans people. He only has a problem with the language requirements.
But then he takes a shot at Ellen/Elliot Page and calls it criminal. I didn't get it until he pointed out that a celebrity is making voluntary sterilization seem cool. That their personal image is somehow flawed.
Inside every person is a mental model of a man and a woman. We build these models based on our parents, then on how we see various role models in our lives. Some people believe that they have to behave like the models they've made. And some of them believe that they aught NOT behave like the models of the opposite sex.
Then there are those that don't accept that they must behave like any one model. That's how you get gender-fluid people. Sometimes they feel girly, other times they feel boyish.
You get gender dysphoria when you decide that you don't like the model of your own sex and decide that you should become the opposite sex - because you identify more with that model.
Toxic masculinity is therefore not only a gross imbalance in your own model - identifying with being hyper-male, but also a repulsion of the opposite model. Women are seen as sub-human and incapable of handling their emotions or making rational decisions, while also being objectified as useful only for reproduction.
I suspect that it's a side effect of the grooming from nazi groups. They find vulnerable boys and show them violent porn. Then they tell them that "their women" are being stolen by black/Hispanic/non-white cultures, which leads to their radicalization.
I think there is masculinity, and there is toxic masculinity, and people bundle them all up together and say that being one means being the other. This of course is not correct. It's like saying if you're a muslim then you're a terrorist. It shows a lack of education, insight and exposure to the topic. Woke culture is mostly about quickly judging others without taking a moment to understand all sides of the discussion.
I think there is woke, and there is toxic wokeness, and people bundle them all up together and say that being one means being the other. This of course is not correct. It's like saying if you're a muslim then you're a terrorist. It shows a lack of education, insight and exposure to the topic. Masculine culture is mostly about quickly judging others without taking a moment to understand all sides of the discussion.
Good point. I was referring to the toxic woke culture, without considering that there are reasonable woke-minded people. I guess, like masculinity, the word 'woke' has come to be understood as a toxic kind automatically.
In my life, it looks like this kind of gender based opinion is a result of loud voices of minorities (by this, I mean small groups who are easily triggered), which get echoed by parrots and imps. In real life, I haven't had any contact with this idea, save for a young guy I met by chance at a bar who wanted to make small talk. Be who you want and live with your decision.
The loudest voices tend to push a narrative that affect wide swathes of people, being able to tune that out now a days is truly a gift.
Being involved in your local community, family, friend circles - that's where you focus your attention rather than the minority of the loudest and usually most extreme, in either direction, voices.
I think in the online social world it is discouraged heavily, however in actual face to face life most people do not feel this way. There are definately some that do and speak loudly over everyone else, but for the silent majority people sont feel the need to discuss this.
It seems heavily discussed in younger age groups but in my personal opinion that is where you are getting this 4th wave feminism and progressivism spreading like wildfire. As people grow up they tend to calm down on these views and understand why the traditional idea of masculinity was necessary and healthy.
Women's issues tended to be that they were being suppressed / aggressed upon, which is the type of issue that's generally pretty visible, and fixing it is more about "people should stop doing X".
Men's issues are more about a _lack_ of something, a lack of support, a lack of warmth, a lack of affirmation, a lack of direction, a lack of hope. This is a lot harder to notice from the outside, harder to take seriously, and categorically harder to fix since it requires action rather than inaction.
Women had less freedom but more support, while men had freedom but no explicit support. In the past that lack of freedom of women meant that men were inherently needed and valued. We've made great strides in more freedoms for women, so now it's men that need new sources of explicit support and warmth.
Imo the "Masculinity" that needs to be supported is around your ability to do what needs to be done. This both means the strength and resilience to do it despite adversity, but also the intelligence to know what it is you're supposed to do, what matters and what doesn't. It definitely doesn't mean the suppression of others, since power isn't the goal in itself. Viewing it this way, "feminine" traits of warmth don't necessarily detract from one's masculinity either, warmth can be crucial to achieving an important outcome.
Theres conflation between masculinity and toxic masculinity as if its all the same thing.
I think women are discouraged from being feminine also which presents its own societal issues.
Most universities advocate for feminism nowadays. Feminists have successfully policed and sanitized our language because according to them particular words promoted the "wrong" ideas.
Yet they use the word "feminism" to mean everything that is good and "patriarchy" to mean everything that is bad.
If the above example isn't proof of discouragement of men for you then I do not know if anything could change a your mind about the issue.
I think firstly we need to identify what "Toxic Masculinity" means in actual terms and how different it is from "Masculinity".
This whole idea of Males with Masculine features and Female with Feminine features was created during the hunters and gatherers period where it made more sense.
Men were required to hunt, gather for food for the family.
Women were required to stay and take care of the kids.
But saying that all men should only have "Masculine" traits vis-à-vis women should only have "Feminine" traits is absurdly wrong in these times.
We as human beings carry a mixture of both traits - Masculine being confident, competent, strong among others and Feminine being kind, caring, empathy among others.
Now toxicity comes into the picture, when (In this case of Toxic Masculinity) men are supposed to not express, "man up" about their feelings or show masculine characteristics by peer pressure.
We need to understand that the only divide we've is in terms of biological features and other traits are heavily influenced by society or upbringing. We always carry a mixture of both traits and one usually is overshadowed by the other.
I think the concept of what a masculine man is is a bit of a myth. What exactly am I meant to be doing so that I'm considered "masculine"? It seems to me as though in order to be considered a man by those advocating "traditional masculinity" I have to be a dick who demeans anyone I can put down that disagrees with me. Although I don't like the behaviour of people who act like all men are a problem to society, I have no inclination to believe in those people who say I can't have self respect unless I act like a caricature from the 50s. I happen to have the greatest respect for strong, kind people in general, regardless of gender.
I think, like most highly politicized issues, it comes down to your social circles. I'm attempting to lower my doom scrolling and instead be highly on specific topics, at the moment its building a nutrition routine with fasting hence why I'm even here. For me its definitely hard not to get sucked into scrolling on whatever platform.
The point being I think you perceive these attacks by being hyper-aware of news/media/scrolling. I fail to see an attack on my masculinity when not on these platforms, I mean I don't even know how that'd happen in an face-to-face interaction but scrolling through other comments its as if there's a concerted effort to destroy the idea of being a man. Saying life is complicated, and especially with our current society being the most complex one to ever exist, doesn't give anyone immediate gratification though.
man become man, god make woman, man like woman, man become woman, man who now woman realize man hot, so man date man. man cannot make man so man become man again and man go back to woman to make man. man is god ooga booga.
I'm growing concerned that you've been getting deeper and deeper down a bit of a rabbit hole lately that will not serve you well.
I'm a longtime fan of your channel, always eagerly awaiting new uploads. I really appreciate your extremely thorough and unbiased approach.
Lately though, Jordan Peterson, Liver King, and now what sounds like more 'red pill' content about masculinity on the way...
I'm a fan of the Peterson lectures I've seen from years ago. Doesn't it feel like he's absolutely off his rocker lately though? So full of hatred, malice and vitriol.
I'm all for some more insights from you on being healthy (physically and mentally).
Just be careful what you feed your own mind while you continue your own journey. Lately it feels like a black hole (or algorithm) of women-hating, backwards thinking content creators are dragging you in, bit by bit.
I only say all of this because it reminds me of watching a friend who has watched too many tiktoks or conspiracy youtube videos, for example, who has started to become radicalized in some way.
Tread carefully, an algorithm can be much like a riptide.
I see both sides being pushed. A set of people who are removing all gender identity and another group who push for masculinity.
You might think that toxic masculinity is frowned upon, but I see in real life very masculine appearing males being successful with women and in career. This may be due to their attractive physical appearance so I'm not sure if a short or facially challenged man can reap these benefits. But everyone loves or defers to a six foot tall, tanned, muscular man with a good smile who seems "nice" but also is firm and unapologetic.
I don't think there is a discouragement about being masculine, but there certainly is a stigma around it. There is a certain correlation between focusing a lot on your "manliness" and being disinterested (or at worst - ignorant) of the issues that a big part of those people are creating.
I believe it's a great thing to focus on your health and physique and being more masculine in terms of physiology is certainly a good thing, if that is what you are striving for.
I believe it's mostly a problem that got brought up by feminine circles, but not necessarily in bad faith. As there are such men that show traits of "hyper-masculinity" (big, muscular, louder etc.) that are also really ignorant or even malicious towards women.
My point is that the solutions to this dilemma should be targeted at those particular cases and not at masculinity as a whole (which sadly it kinda is nowadays).
I don't feel pressure to reign in masculine impulses. Of course, I don't think I have many—it's amazingly easy for me to _not_ run around raping and pillaging. But there are other aspects, at least in the US, that are off-putting.
For example, I'm in a mixed-race marriage. And I'm worried that one day when we have kids, some lunatic busybody will see me out with my ethnically-different child and call the cops under suspicion I'm a child predator. It feels like, in this zeitgeist, men in society are just suspected of being up to no good by default.
Elon Musk recently tweeted, “The woke mind virus is either defeated or nothing else matters.”
The notion of toxic masculinity is a Woke fabrication. Some behaviors are good while others are bad, regardless of the gender of the person.
I think the problem lies in the labeling. The traits that are described in toxic masculinity are bad for the collective and each individual personally as well but it is framed as if it is a problem of the male nature.
For example bullying or sexuell assault is labeled as toxic masc. (2 objective bad things) but the only thing it does is generating these useless discussion we have now and you can see that in the comment section.
also anyone who is offended by this wording is a bit of a snowflake, normally attributed to the very left of the political spectrum. Quite ironic actually
I think the problem is much easier:
There are toxic people. Some are male, some are female. And a lot of the time they attract each other and end up creating toxic relationships.
That's it.
Then there's what we're told, that toxic masculinity is the cause of all problems, and that's just a lie.
No way. I think all women want strong and confident men.
Yes
It’s like Jordan Peterson say you have to develop your abilities and control it.
Be able to defend your self and family
In Asia, I don't think men are discouraged from being the traditional paradigm of masculinity. I do think there is a problem where men are constantly being fed the idea that the traditional paradigm is the only paradigm.
With this definion of feminism: "The theory supporting the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.",
do you think it is possible to identify as a feminist and be a masculine man at the same time?
I’d say most modern day feminism doesn’t fit that definition. So no.
Well I main issue I see in "toxic masculine" men is lack of indulgence.. for all kinds of things. Been there myself but I've really put the effort into becoming indulgent and I've managed to receive a lot of positive feedback in terms of being "more masculine" or "you're the example of healthy masculinity" and women tend to feel safer around me every since.
To add to this, it's easy to misinterpret indulgence in masculine self-improvement as a status seeking and ego building behavior, when in reality the person could be doing it just for themselves.